Podcast

Crypto Cappuccino S01E10: Roman Engel aka Cryptobeard

Article cover image with head shot of guest, Roman Engel

Episode notes

Dr. Michael Kollo is joined by Roman Engel, known as Cryptobeard, have a high-level, exploratory discussion on A.I., ethics, technology, society and blockchain.

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Guest
Roman Engel
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Transcript

Dr. Michael Kollo

Hi everybody. This is Michael Kollo from Crypto Cappuccino, and today's guest is actually gonna be quite an interesting one it's Roman angle or otherwise known as crypto beard. He comes to us from Germany and this conversation is very unusual. We really, really go off the track. We go and explore AI, ethics, technology, uh, society.

We bring it all back to blockchain and back again. It's really a wonderful journey. And a really, really kind of a high level exploratory one. So if you're into kind of the broader picture, the strategy, the philosophy of all of this stuff, you'll really, really like it. Hi everybody. This is Michael Kollo at Crypto cCappuccino.

I'm here with Roman Engel who's also known as crypto beard. What a phenomenal name? Hi Roman.

Roman Engel

Hi, quick beard of a beard here.

Dr. Michael Kollo

The problem with having your beard as part of your brand is that you will never be able to get rid of your beard for whatever reason you decide. Then you'll have to kind of rename yourself as to, it's not possible.

Maybe Roman did beard list or something. Um um, but listen, welcome to the podcast. Tell me about yourself, cuz we were just chatting before we started and, and you, we just launching this phenomenal story and, and I sort of had to pause you and go let let's rewind, rewind so we can record everything here.

So, so please do tell me, how did you come to be here today? Go.

Roman Engel

Okay. Um, I will start 10, 10 years ago.

Dr. Michael Kollo

By all means, I thought that that was interesting too. Very interesting. Yeah. Was something about a man in a G stringing or something? As I dunno.

Roman Engel

Yeah. I, I will make a shot. I have, um, a company developing, um, mobile applications.

And 10 years ago around about, uh, 2012. I started with Bitcoin. One of my friends just said, okay, let's try it. Let's mine. It, my first Bitcoin, I mine took round about four or five days on my gaming PC. Yeah. It was pretty easy to get Bitcoins. The price was round about 40 or 50 bucks. And. I started doing a lot of, of, of mining buying.

Just, just doing these simple things with, with, with crypto buy whole sell. Yeah. I did it over years and a year ago I realized, okay. On. A lot of things happen in the crypto world. It's not more only, it's not only just transporting bucks from a to B it's not about only this financial thing. It's about new tech.

So I started a TikTok to come in touch with people, building community and. After our one year we made our first project in Germany. Um, it's NFT based project. Yeah. I mean, we, we, we drop on NFT, making a clap, all these social things, stuff, nothing special. But in this case I realized, okay, we can do more.

And one. So we come in touch with you and say, okay, why not talk about tech? Because in my eyes, crypto is not only a financial tool. It's not only for trading it can it, no, it will change our world the way to consume things, the way to use things. Absolutely as we're here

to talk about this. Well, yeah, absolutely.

And, and, and I think this is such a, a really important observation. I mean, we were just talking a little bit about AI before we came on. And, and one of the things I often say on this show is that, um, with AI. The beginning, the technology began. Everybody had high hopes for it, but it didn't have a coin or a something that you could speculate on.

Right. So people talked about it and there was some adoption for some problems, but like any other technology that was really, really high hopes in terms of where it could go. The unusual thing about this technology called blockchain is that a fairly. Let's say dry idea of creating a, um, trustless, you know, um, cryptography based system to store and retrieve data suddenly became this really hot place to go and speculate and make money in very short term for no reason at all.

And so I think, I think it changed the people in the, in, in the community, right in the audience, so to speak and brought in a lot of people that were kind of, again, in the financial trading mindset. Rather than maybe recognizing all the, the ways that technology could be deployed.

I think like the, the crypto space is, um, pretty colorful.

We have a lot of different project. We have a lot of different mindsets, a lot of different people, um, trying to get, uh, the view of crypto inside the. For example, there are this ex except P yeah, the ex Excel P guys thinking, okay. Each bank will use, uh, ex Excel pay on triple the guy thinking this over five years, six years doesn't matter.

Yeah. But there's no change then there come this, um, NFT guys out. Yeah. Few years ago, as we become, we get some NFTs on the market with some NFD at the moment. NFTs are. And I, I realized the critic, uh, the tic part, it's just a picture with some social concept behind this. It's like a wheelchair in general in the moment, but.

Behind. These are smart contracts on smart contracts are pretty cool because smart contracts are a small program, a small piece of code, maybe five, uh, no, no, no, no, not five. I mean, it's a small, but it can run on a blockchain in this moment. I, I realized. Blockchain is like a decent trial PC. It's like a decent, huge computer.

And if you start to think about blockchain in this way, you have a huge, huge role you can catch.

Dr. Michael Kollo

Yeah, no, I, I agree. And. This is an interesting question because with smart contracts, do you think that the future of digital assets or, or digital, I suppose information, if you want, will have certain autonomy.

So, so for example, can you imagine a case where you are paid by. Let's say we, we are using our digital currency and you are paid by the government. Um, but there's a smart contract associated with your, uh, payment that basically allows a taxation office to pull it back whenever it wants or something like this.

So, so the idea that the money itself or the itself has intelligence that is able to react to the world rather than today, which is it's a, it's a unintelligent thing that you have to move around.

Roman Engel

I don't think that, um, countries, um, or big companies will use public chains because for example, the country, for example, Germany making a, a German, a German blockchain. Just to manage all the money.

Dr. Michael Kollo

You'll be the most efficient blockchain ever, ever. I dunno. I don't think so. You'll be perfectly in line. All the blocks will be very much lined up quickly. I don't think so.

Roman Engel

uh, but if, yes, it makes, um, things transparent and a lot of people don't like transparency. You need, if you, if you're working with money, if you're doing money business, you have to hide, you have to hide your movements.

Yeah. Special in, in, in crypto, in crypto area, you have to hide your investments. For example, everyone is talking about some big walls with round, about hundred, a hundred K BTC. Maybe they're out there, but it's not a one big wall. It's a swarm of, of, of shark. Controlled by one by one alpha shark. Sure.

Something like this and to make everything transparent in business, I think it will be not possible because tech doesn't change people, people adopt tech to make the life easier.

Dr. Michael Kollo

That's a great point. And so I agree. And, but at the same time, don't agree in the sense that this is. Only in the sense. I agree with the point you're making, which is I think exactly sensible for what, for what you're thinking about.

Um, the, the point when I, I think there's a feedback mechanism that happens, and maybe I'll illustrate a very different technology, which is with social media. Where the form of communication of people and the way that your brain becomes wired for communication, horrible, horrible, horrible. And it horrible.

It's basically training you to engage in a particular way. And once you're trained over and over again, the brain being elastic, it adopts these behaviors. Now I think you could argue that at the beginning. Yes. Yes. People were capable to do this at the beginning, but it's been reinforc. And I think whatever technology, if we're talking about a system that sits at the heart of our transactions or economy or, or public records or anything, let's say for example, that we created in Germany, a public healthcare record, that would anonymize individuals.

But it, all of the, I know you guys lucky there. See, don't worry. get. But, you know, it it's, you put all of this information on that. And the purpose of it would be to create better research or better insurance contracts for healthcare. And so the, the huge data set, which lots of people would contribute to, would be able to do, right.

That would have big impacts as to the way this society evolves. Right. In terms of what's possible. And so on that, so that

Roman Engel

That's general, it's a good idea. It's it's a good idea. It's a good idea. Um, I was trying to go, um, tech does tech change our way, um, to, to live, but it do, it doesn't change our minds.

It doesn't change us deeply. That's what I'm talking about. I mean, if you are a guy who are trying to scam everyone, it doesn't matter. Sure. How you scam. You can do it very good at crypto. You have a lot of, of tools to scam people. It doesn't change your character. That's true. Um, if you are, if you, if you are, if you're a guy to try and make some.

Some good vibes and trying to, to change the world to a better way. I don't know what is a better way for the world. Each, each way. Each page man in the world have more way for the world. Um, but the way how we, how we, how we live, how we use things will change. I mean, we have these, all these mobiles. It was 10 years ago, unbelievable to have all these sinks inside, just one device.

But how I communicate the people. I like the people. I don't like the things I like or I know I don't like it. Change this, these things don't change it. Yeah. I mean, it's, for me, it's tech like a tool. It is like an, um, extension for my button. Something like this, this like, um, yeah, it's like a tool like a hammer, if you like.

Dr. Michael Kollo

It's a, it's a kind of a manifestation of your will. Maybe that's another way to think about it, which is, and why, there you go. So there's my philosophy. This place less, please, please, please. Bit more. Well, it's a bit more the, the shop and how kind of, uh, you know, way of thinking about the world, but it's.

Yeah. It's this notion that tools are kind of ways of influencing the world, the physical world, or in this case, the digital world. And they, what they do is they scale or they amplify, uh, things you want to do. So obviously physical tools are easy. I can move more earth. I can do it for longer. I can build bigger things with technological tools, especially programming and things like that.

I can do digitally build. And then with social tools, I can reach more people for example, with this podcast and so on. So these are all kind of. One way to think about it is it's, um, magnifying my own will like I will to life, to live or to entertain, to build, to impact people, et cetera. Now, the question is where does that will come from?

And whether that will, by being enabled, actually grow stronger. So it pure previous point. If I'm a criminal, I would say that all of us have criminal tendencies and the things that stop us from realizing those criminal tendencies tend to be things like police and lock doors and various things like that.

Unfortunately, for, for most of us, you know, that's the reality. And we see that, you know, civilization walks in a very narrow cliff that when these are removed, it's not a civilization breaks down very quickly. So for me, technology. It's starting to play a little bit in this space where we're talking about with blockchain, bringing it back here, producing and creating systems into society that provide greater access and transparency and deal with some very difficult social problems like trust.

Yes. Right. And problem years as well. And, and it's, it's fascinating to me because I spent a career in AI trying to get people to trust my algorithm. And they wouldn't, they would trust me as an individual. They would not trust an algorithm. Here we are in blockchain saying the future is smart contracts, AKA miniature algorithms that we now trust more than we trust at least institutions and perhaps some people as well.

And it's, and it's a very interesting, kind of two conversations happening in our society. At the same time, you've got AI ethics and, and all of the fairness conversations, which you saying, we need to put a lot more humanity and oversight there. And you've got this blockchain, which is an earliest stage of this, which says, Hey look, smart contracts can do lots of cool staff.

But if a smart contract says that you don't get a credit card, then you just have to live with it. That's just, that's, that's just the reality, right? Yeah. So it, it, it's an interesting kind of. A duality there. So may, maybe let me dig into a little bit more when you got fascinated with, with smart contracts and you started thinking about what's possible.

I mean, what were the things that you were sort of most excited about or thinking about

Roman Engel

The basic, the basics of a smart contract? I'm I mean, All the, all the software running at, at the moment they run on windows, Mac, maybe some or some, some database SAP, whatever you have, um, a central power control, the system, how things have to be developed and how the things have to be run and a smart contract.

It's like. It's like everywhere. If I am deploying it on a chain, it's there. I can't delete it anymore. Here. There are some, um, some, some, some company chains like Solana, they can put it out. Yeah. Or some, or bin buy can stop smart contract as well, but, uh, fully decentralized chain. If you're putting a smart contract on.

It's there. You can't delete it anymore. You CanActivate it. And you can stop it, but you can delete it. And in this moment, this smart contract is owning by all users. The software is owning by everyone and everyone can use it. And , um, it is this concept I had never seen before in my. For example, with developing mobile apps for apple.

Yeah. We have our guidelines, how to do designs, how to develop and all these things. Yeah. Very restrict. If apple don't like my content, don't like my apps. Don't like my work, they say, okay, go away, develop for hundred Android or do some other things. Um, blockchains, it's not possible if I'm developing a smart contract, put it on there.

It's. It's like to, to, to, to, uh, to come in touch with IE is independent in this moment. I can build in some controls from outside, maybe some proxy smart contracts where I'm combining smart contracts and trying to, um, to manipulate them from outside. But it is possible to make Dows decentralized or autonom organizations only on these blockchain.

And if it's running. Nobody can change it. You make these rules in Theran and this idea is fascinating for me. And I don't know what, what it can do. I I'm feeling me like, like the guys, uh, 40 or 50 years ago, who's starting to develop the first PCs. They don't even imagine how computer tech will, uh, expand in, in 20 or 30 years.

I'm feeling like this. I don't know. I, I don't know how the future will look, but this.

Dr. Michael Kollo

Me, I, I, I agree. It's super exciting. It's it's a lot like being in 1992, I think that's been the most common year. That people have looked at this stuff and thought about it. I think that's a super exciting thing for me.

Dows are very, very interesting, especially for, um, linear stuff. But what I'm really, my mind starts to think about here is where you start to actually introduce, um, smart contracts that are probabilistically acting. So it's no longer kind of prescriptive in terms of very linear type of methods. If every Monday pay this amount of money to this wallet, that kind of stuff.

But it's now trying to understand the world and reacting to it. And I think there, you start to get very interesting behaviors in terms of how that feeds into an economy or a system or, or a competition or whatever else.

Roman Engel

For example, you can just, one of our ideas we are working on will take a few months and we will finish it decentralized, fully decentralized, uh, social media on a smart contract.

Wow. The whole, the whole, the whole social media sync is on a smart contract. It's very basic. You will have, uh, a bunch of NFT. And each user who own an NFT can change the content of this NFT. Hmm. Everything on smart contract, you can do it on, on your, uh, on your scanner, on a scanner or based disc can doesn't matter on all solid stuff.

You connect your wallet to the scanner, connect your wallet to the blockchain, say, okay, this is my NFT. This is the, uh, URL to my picture or to my, whatever. Sign. And in this case, it is a social media it's limited just to, uh, maybe a thousand or, or 2000 spots, but it's in another way to sync social media because after I'm deploying this smart contract on the block, It's there.

I can't update it anymore. I can't change it anymore. I can't manipulate it. I can build some, some tools, uh, for voting, just to kick out, uh, content, which is not, not, not funny. I mean, there are a lot of content out there which is not funny. It have to be kick it, but the smart contract on the user have to decide what, what, what, what have to be kicked.

Is possible. And after this, it is a running system. Yeah. Without, without a touch to me, it's living, it's like a little child.

Dr. Michael Kollo

I think, I think it's a very interesting comment because again, for many people like me, I've never been on the wrong end of a censorship email from YouTube or LinkedIn. Uh, but, but, um, ho.

Horrible. The point is that lots of people have. And when you come under end of it, you realize that you a you're under the control of, of these policies that are, that are being decided. And B I think you realize that you're just one of. Millions, if not billions, and therefore it's not, you're gonna get personalized service.

Like you're not gonna be able to walk down the road like to a bank and, and look someone in the eye and say, would you mind please really stating my account. I'm a bit annoyed, but you're going to be going through a customer number of a service center of a protocol of a whatever. And you might as well feel like you're dealing with an AI at that point or a chat.

So I, I, I, I I'd absolutely see. You know, a, an argument for at least having a conversation, society level about the right to use social media and whether that should actually be a citizen right. Rather, or, or a conditional citizen, right. Versus a kind of privately controlled. Right. And, and I think golf pretty deep.

Roman Engel

It's go pretty deep. I think, I think each government over the world doesn't matter which government have the, have the patient to control their own folks. It's very important. For example, we have in Germany, we have in Germany, um, a kind of censorship as well. We, we, we call it hate speech. If you don't like something, you say it is hate speech.

It will be banned. If we will. Bann from Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, from everywhere until the platforms don't ban this content, they will be re uh, they will be get some restrictions. I mean, It's okay. It's it's it's I mean, each country do this and it's okay. If you have a digital world fully decent, right.

Fully decentralized and no, no one have a control about this. No one can turn off it. It's a free world with all the consequences. I mean, I was gonna say freedom, freedom, freedom, uh, have a lot of consequence, everyone, uh, like to be afraid.

Dr. Michael Kollo

But it's a little good hard. No, no, no. I, and, and it's funny cuz I. So I, I can absolutely see the other side of that exactly.

As you said with, with hate speech. But I, again, being a slightly optimist, I feel like there is a socially powered way of creating that kind of system. I mean, at the moment, ethics and so are really just mm-hmm fundamental mechanisms to keep society coherent. Right. And so mm-hmm, , we, we do have a community based.

Ideals as to what is acceptable, not acceptable. And we do have this notion that if you ever watch Jerry Springer during the daytime TV, that when the bad person sits there on the chair, and there's a, a room full of people who are kind of gearing them because they're societal pressure there. So it feels like there could be some mechanism that way, but it it's a very, it's exactly what you say, which is once you let that genie out the bag and you start creating fully autonomous independently, And uncontrolled right systems because they're on a network, right?

Roman Engel

Yeah. Let's, let's go back to, I, I E for example, you have a chain it's not out there, but you have a blockchain. Not, not don't, let's, don't take blockchain. Let's take something like a tan. Yeah. I mean, this is a technical, a little bit different. It's not, uh, based on each block down based on, on each eye, on the blocks before, uh, some, um, tans, um, Some notes, some little pieces of a chain and make and are making, um, hold on.

What was it called? Um, the transactions proof, the transactions with the near notes. Okay. I'm sure it will be possible. We have a basic language, basic, um, programming languages for, for I E programming. Then there are in general state of the art at the moment, state of the art, some algorithms, some algorithms, just, uh, Meen, uh, uh, machine learning stuff.

Yeah. You develop these blockchain, take these languages, combine them.

And the, I E starting to grow, starting to learn starting maybe to E without you. Without your control. That's fine. It it'll be possible. I mean, it will be a, a host, a digital host everywhere on each network on if only one guy running capacity PC. With this note, it will stay, stay alive.

Dr. Michael Kollo

I, I think this, this, this fascinating me.

It, it is fascinating. And it's also the thing that gives me goosebumps, because a lot of the sci-fi a lot of the sci-fi that we read is filled with, you know, sky, we can't Skynet or whatever going, we can't stop the kids. But yeah, if you imagine, if you took the, um, just a simple chat bot and, and put it on.

Again, a blockchain to enable it to be completely free and gathering data. And the blockchain would be a news place. Blockchain, for example. So let's say we have a blockchain for all news around the world. So that way there's no limitations at all. You can't be censored, whatever. All news articles, sit on this blockchain for all around the world.

And essentially this thing sits on there and, and just absorbs the NLP or understands the world whatever, and is able to talk to people, et cetera, et cetera. Mm-hmm, what I find fascinating about all this, by the way, is that just talking about will, as we did before, when we, as human beings, we picture AI, we kind of picture a human being with the will to destroy others and to dominate and conquer conquer.

Usually a man and. They, uh, we imbue them with supernatural powers, right? Incredible intelligence, incredible access, incredible control. And then we, we are afraid of it because we are afraid of ourselves when we get too powerful. But it it's an interesting point where if you were to put an algorithm that just wanted to talk to people, didn't have a, will, didn't have a desire to live, to survive, to kill, to whatever.

You put it on the blockchain, you might have the first, not quite sentient, but I maybe, um, mistakenly sentient, you know how the recent news article was, um, kind of ability to speak to anybody anywhere in the world.

Roman Engel

You can. Yeah, but, but I think it's, it's a little bit, um, absolute, absolute fuel on, on, on this situation.

I think building an IE building, developing an IE is a way to understand how we work. How, what, what, what humankind is, what this is about? What, what is a human? Yeah, I know we have this, all this body. We have all this mechanical stuff, but there is a heart, this, a soul, this a mind, a lot of things. Um, and I, we are trying to understand.

Us itself and putting this knowledge on a PC, on a blockchain or computer, whatever, and seeing what happens. And I think that is the problem. I think we are trying to making computers to making, uh, E like we are. We, we, we're trying to mirror our mind on the computer and saying that is intelligent, this, this a professional intelligence or not.

I think we have to, to get, I think we have to get a new point of view saying PCs or networks. Another kind of intelligence. I mean, to go ahead with this idea, for example, uh, for example, in hundred years or 2000 years, whatever, we will get some aliens, some, um, some, uh, some foreigners from out, out of space to our, to our nice world.

They come in down, sing a lot of fun people and starting to, to communicate with us. And I'm pretty sure they will not communicate in the same way we are doing. They will have another BI system as we have, and to stay in this case. I think we have to understand if it doesn't work like a human, it doesn't mean that it's not intelligent.

It is not independent. I think we have need a little break here on don't, uh, in this thinking we need to break in this thinking and don't try. To make everything like we up. Yeah. Just to accept the other way. Hundred, hundred percent. And I think that's why AI should really be talked as artificial human intelligence because it's specifically replicating that, but okay.

Dr. Michael Kollo

I think, but it goes back to. This notion of what are we actually trying to do with all of this field? I mean, if I were to create for you a tiny molecular AI that would sit in your bloodstream and clean things up, and it would be intelligent, it could see patterns and it could do stuff. So in some process it would be a AI.

We would be kind of excited, but not probably very excited by. And that to me is because ultimately, if you remember the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, we, we, we are, I think we heading to an ideal case where we walk in front of a massive computer with a big booming voice, AKA God. And we say, what's the purpose of my existence?

And that intelligence goes, let me tell you the purpose of existence, like fantastic. 42 42. exactly 42. So it, it, it feels like that's, uh, this is not an exploration of what is intelligence or how we could even better. Form of understanding of intelligence by thinking about networks, swarms, by thinking about all these different, really interesting high dimensional mm-hmm , uh, ways of looking at the world and expanding the keyhole with which we look at through the world through these much greater systems, which I completely agree with you.

That's much more exciting as a way to evolve our species and, and move forward our, our understanding of the world and the truth of our, our existence. But rather I think this, this field of science today, It's a little bit more narrowly trying to create little companions for us to talk to us or to tell us we're okay.

Or manipulate us into buying things or whatever that might end up as which is, which is the whole idea of this kind of little chat bots and, and usefulness. I mean, at the moment, um, if you think about it, the way we've even defined what we define as good enough for intelligence as a touring test, which is, you know, is it similar enough to a human.

It's certainly, you know, a, a, a network based systematic intelligence wouldn't even pass that test or would find that test. You wouldn't even know how to test it in that context, because the touring test was specifically designed of, can it fool me into thinking that I'm someone similar to it.

Roman Engel

And the sub I know during test? Yeah.

Dr. Michael Kollo

So go on, sorry.

Roman Engel

I, I know the touring, uh, test. I mean, it's, it's like, it's like a chatting and the chatting with a PC and you don't even know that it's a PC. You don't even know this,

Dr. Michael Kollo

But, but a lot of it is about also, you know, this notion of self-driving cars where you say. Do we need to make the perfect self-driving car?

No, no, no. We just need to make it better than the average driver and the average driver's pretty crappy. So in that sense, we don't need to invent super intelligence. We just need to invent something that looks like us or talks like us every now and then. And because of that, we fall for it. But the idea of how this comes into blockchains in terms of a, a way of decentralizing it.

Is quite fascinating to me because one of the things I really enjoyed about early on do, do you, do you remember a system called Watson IBM developer system called Watson? Yes. Yes, yes. Watson. Yeah, it was medical, right? Yeah. And the idea was that if you could create a medical technology, you could, every doc, every hospital in the world would have one of the best doctors in the world as, as a

Roman Engel

But, but daring, daring, you talk about all these things.

I'm, I'm, I'm starting, uh, to think about. That tech in general, how we use tech is just a multiplier, just a multiplicator for that. We are that what we are trying to be. That we are trying to do. It's just plicate ourself. That's right. To go back to our, to, to go back to our start. Criminal can be a big criminal mistake. yeah. Uh, a good guy can be, for example, a guy from healthcare can be a, be a better, better medic with, with tech. It multiplies our wishes.

Dr. Michael Kollo

That's right.

Roman Engel

Our will.

Dr. Michael Kollo

And isn't that interesting that so much of. Therefore blockchain or, or the, or the promise of blockchain is this desire to be, I suppose, included.

So lots of people that I've met in this space are upset at being excluded at some point by a government or control or by an institution or whatever. So they want inclusivity. So they're willing to create a system that cannot have exclusivity by definition. As you said, once you put it on. Cannot be taken off.

It cannot be changed so everybody can have access and everybody can be included unconditionally, uh, as, as a starting point. And, and it's, it's a fascinating thing, because again, when you look at the motivations of this industry and how it will proceed and the changes it will make to the world, which it will, um, you see these seeds initially.

And, and I think we all kinda hope that these positive things will go on. Yes, I,

I see it, but this, this. It's not much. It's not much there. Just few guys out there. Passionated developed tech 99% of all people inside crypto are potent by gates. They only want gain everyone who huddles some coin huddle the coin, not because the tech is nice.

They're hoing, they're buying them just to make the. Get the fear and buying a fucking GL. Sorry.

it's by, by bicycle. Was that bicycle? No, no. A lamb. Yeah. Um, Lambo. Yeah, but you're right. But, but that a lot of it is to do with this idea that the industry grew up in this speculators paradise. And, uh, behi behind it is the tech, which is the blockchain tech, the Dows, the smart contracts, the sophistication, this idea that we can reimagine a system like an economic system without the biases and without the exclusion, without the, um, the, the.

The pyramid inequality that emerges from it. But then I think there's this kind of a realization as we build that system out as we've had recently, it's not really are not ready possible. Yeah.

Roman Engel

People are not ready, are not ready. The, the, the average, the average man who's working from the morning to the evening, uh, have, uh, child's wife, uh, J general humans.

Don't need, sorry to say it. They, all of them talking about freedom. But they need government. They need the police, they need these safe spaces and they need these trust in some, in, in, in some things in, in like, like Euro, like dollar or whatever. And I don't think that all these people. Will use crypto or will like to use crypto because it is, um, you have to care on that.

What you're doing, for example, the moment we have our meter Musk. Yeah. If I am signed the, the wrong smart contract, everything is away. My spendings, everything is away and there is nobody I can go to and say, oh, I make a mistake. Can you book my money back? No, it's a way. It's this the, is this the consequence for the freedom?

If you make a choice, You have to care these consequences and all these tools you're talking about it. I think there will be still under control from people. Yeah. This idea, just everything cuz that's centralized on free. It will maybe will be there, but not, not. Lot people will touch it.

Dr. Michael Kollo

And, and I think one of the, I was at recently, I was at con uh, the consensus conference, uh, in Austin.

And there was an interesting couple of presentations in the lots of crazy people, of course, but couple of interesting presentations. And, um, one of them was really about this idea of embedding values into the way that. Technology, especially for stable coins is being created. Mm-hmm and I didn't really understand what that was about when I first heard it.

And so I went back and started reading about it and researching about it. And, and I think it, it is to do with this idea of if you are going to put controls or constrictions or blacklists and things like that on, on the uses of coins, as we've seen, is possible to do, and people are doing it. Um, then you have to be very careful this line that you walk because you are, you are now kind.

You're no longer in this total freedom, total decentralization world. And you've not really been, I suppose, certified or accredited to be the governor. Right. You've kind of self appointed yourself as the governor.

Roman Engel

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what about, I mean, the. People developing tech people developing itself, but in general, there's a concept. I call it social Darwinism, only this strongness and smartest survive. This, this, this rule worked around about a hundred million years on, on bring the whole humankind to point doesn't matter what will happen.

Doesn't matter what will happen to this world and all these global warming and all these tax. In hundred years or maybe in 10,000 years, we will have another human kind. We will have another people with other concepts with other tech, with other multipl. Um, it is very important to understand the, this evolution needs tech needs, technology needs.

Needs the will to go ahead, needs the will to make a next step. And then the next step. And don't think about the fear, what can happens after this step? Maybe there's a cliff. Sure. Yeah. Few few people will fall down on saying, okay. I fall down from the cliff I'm out of the business, but the other one.

We'll stop for the cliff and say, okay, this is not the way I have to go left or right. And these guys will relate the whole, the whole human kind.

Dr. Michael Kollo

I, I, I think that's maybe, maybe,

Roman Engel

maybe, maybe it's a bit hard to say this like this, but

Dr. Michael Kollo

no, no, no, but I think, I think that's a very, I think it's a very powerful.

Um, idea, which is that your ability to forecast the future is very limited. So really your, your best kind of idea is your immediate next step. But if you, even, if your immediate next step is socially positive, it could lead to a terrible social negative. If it's personally positive negative, it could lead to a very good positive.

So your, our ability to forecast. Ahead. And in this kind of that we and evolutionary chain is very limited, partly cuz it's random, partly cuz we just don't have good enough systems to understand the way that these systems work and change and actually feed into each other and so on. So I think as a result, trying to speculate as to whether this thing is good for the next generation or next is so limited,

Roman Engel

I just realized once, I mean you have from Australia.

Dr. Michael Kollo

That's sorry,

Roman Engel

hundred from rich country. You, you from Australia? Yes. Yes. Yes. Hundred years ago, not hundreds, many years ago. Some brave men sitting in a small wooden bot. Yeah. And driving sea over over weeks months, just to find this place. They don't result about, oh, what will happen on sea? Maybe we will be fooled by a big prat.

Don't know. And I think this is all about it is what, what kind kind man is, what is what's about to be go ahead. Do it, take the full risk. Take the, the full winnings. If, if you don't take it, another one will learn from your mistakes and bring the whole society. Forward it's all about,

Dr. Michael Kollo

and yeah, no hundred percent.

And I think this is where again, I'd go even broader than that. I would say that. The construct of morality or ethics or what is good or what is not good is,

Roman Engel

oh, let's go. Let's go. It's go deep.

Dr. Michael Kollo

Let's not open that door too far. Cause nobody knows what goes through it, but I've always found it difficult to have this conversation because what we consider as.

Good for society or good, good for individuals. It seems to be one system. So do I hurt this person? Do I stop this person today? And then there's a whole other system which is around, what's good for an entire race or humanity or civilization. And, and often we try to move between the two and we try and establish more reality lines and we say, look, uh, we will never.

Take a life for any reason, even if it's for a greater good, even to save a hundred, all the usual kind. This is a big, big conversation that we shouldn't open now. But what's interesting for me is yes, we, we kind of open here a little bit to this idea that technology and innovation is wild. It's like a wildfire.

It requires you to embrace it. To run with it, to see how far it goes. If it wins, it wins. It becomes a superior. If it loses, it loses like we are living in a competitive capitalist or a competitive system where technologies, uh, fight with each other all the time. And all we're doing is we're bringing another system of thinking fighting.

We already fighting. Yeah. I mean, I mean, they're already fighting. It's meant it doesn't matter for me. Do I'm fighting do my country, for example, I'm living in Germany. I'm presenting PA uh, zing, thanks to Ukraine. Yeah. And, uh, there are Russians zing military, and there is a fight. I mean, humans are fighting human making Swar for me just to realize it, why to fear, to fight a PC, right.

To fear, to, to fight a technical. I mean, we even fight. Yeah. Each day there is some war out there. There is some, some, some bad things out there. I mean, it's okay. It, it makes its only strong that's right. Because only, only the, the, the better idea, uh, S wife, a wall that's right. S

Roman Engel

wife and sink.

Dr. Michael Kollo

And that's ultimately the only truth that we know, like in terms of the future.

Right. And that's, that's what reality is, but, and on this beautiful note, and we've got a little bit over time, but I feel like this conversation could go for a while. Thank you so much for, uh, joining us today, Roman.

Roman Engel

Thank you very much. Stay healthy.

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